To the other ALANONs on the list --- H E L P! I don't know how to deal with extreme stubbornness. Any insights??

Thanks,
A--

The "I will show you" stance, as much as the stubborn child stomping its foot and refusing to back down as though life depended on it, is the bane of our lives. It means that we can shoot ourselves in the foot, and then in the leg, and then in the stomach, and then we'll shoot the guy who tries to stop us shooting ourselves. And all this drama because our shoelace snapped and we couldn't tie the damn thing and look nicely tidy on a date with someone we wanted to take hostage.

It means I will go on doing the same thing again and again and again, even though it patently does not work. I will grit my teeeeeeeeeeeth and plug away at that damn profitless job, though the wolves at the door shake their heads in astonished pity and leave me as too meager pickings for their efforts.

It means that I will turn my back on you and your good goddamn nagging advice if it kills me, you, and all the rest of you know-nothings. It has nothing to do with the fact that I love you dearly and value your preciousness beyond anything else I possess. It has no bearing on our reality at all. It is the action of my inner voice "who must be obeyed" as it works to grind my soul's face in the dirty diaper of my own making. It is an infinite binary loop whose imperative will see you all in hell before it gives up. It is a puppy who will let itself be lifted by the teeth and shaken o so vigorously, hanging from the slipper it refuses to relinquish. It is just a tragicomedy that grips us -holics in the farce of it's pitiless script. It is pretty sad, when all is said and done. It is best ignored.

That reminds me of a story...

A ship came sailing over the horizon when a sailor noticed a man in the water. A boat was lowered, the rescue was on.

They saw waves breaking all around the castaway in an otherwise calm sea. He was holding onto a pintle of rock just breaking the surface, it was a miracle. How had he found his way on this uncharted ocean to this very spot where salvation was to be found?

They threw him a ring on a rope, he put it around his neck. They pulled hard on the rope but they couldn't dislodge him from the rock. Was he caught fast? No! he was actually holding on.

" Let go! " They shouted.

" I cant " He replied.

The harder they pulled, the more desperately he clung to his sliver of territory.

" Don't you want rescuing? " They asked him.

" Of course I do " Said the man " D'you think I'm stupid? "

" So let go " They pleaded.

" You don't understand " He countered. " This is my rock. "

His rescuers looked at each other: "A Meshuggener" they thought.

Turning back they listened again as he began telling them of the beautiful boat he had once owned, how the massive rock had crashed through the deck, plunging to the sea-bed and smashing the boat to pieces.

" Are you telling us the rock fell out of the sky? " They asked incredulously.

" Out of the sky? " He said. " No. I was holding it in my hand.

When it grew, I mean, like, really massive, I just couldn't bear it any more. Once it was just a regular pebble you know, I grew it all by myself. So it's mine, you see? "

" Just let go " they begged.

" You don't understand " He answered........

He was still trying to explain, saying, shouting, screaming; "You don't understand..." clinging desperately to his stupid rock, when they were leaving. It was the last they saw of him as they disappeared over the horizon.

I will be concise - only because I am reading for class - a course in qualitative research - I am an Al-anon and I am no stranger to stubborn or defiant behavior; my own and the "holics" in my life that I love. Hope to be able to write more..

For H--, Since we are categorizing groups of people by their behaviors...Do "holic" and "addict" types stay up into the "wee" hours of the night or early morn? 3 am! My hubby, son, and brother tend to be that way, too! Good morning :)

M---

--A--

It wasn't till the next year as we were unpacking the pots and pans, that i discovered my true genius. I had labeled all the meat dishes and pots etc with a big "M" (for meaty), and so as to avoid any chance of confusion I then labeled all the milky dishes and pots etc. with a huge "M".........(for milky).

Still makes me chuckle, that one. I was so frum in those days I used to spend hours on the morning before pesach rolling all my joints (aprox. 80) so I wouldn't have to lick the glue on the paper which might not be kosher l'pesach......on pesach. I had a kosher l'pesach bong/pipe in the shape of a fish made of jade. I was miserable as a slave, couldn't wait for my seder to end so I might get rid of the guests and smoke a joint. That was freedom!

There are seventy addictions.......35 of them prefer to kill their host, the other 35 simply love their host ...............

I have not been a compulsive gambler yet.

H--

What I really hate is that I feel like I am the one who has to live with the decisions that others make, that I have to change my lifestyle for others, that I always end up doing a zillion times more than anyone else in my family, that it is me who prepares for the holidays, for Shabbat, for daily life. I work so darn hard, and don't ask for a lot, and then I hit that cement wall.

I know I am talking in circles, I'm sorry.

You know, I can be stubborn too, but not nearly as stubborn as the alcoholics that have been/are in my life. I find it extremely frustrating. All I want to do is cry. There is no reasoning, no compromising, no nothing, ... ah hell I am hurting tonight and not in a good place, so I better just sign off. Thanks H--.

--A--

Since I am in both AA (6 years) and Alanon (17 years) I feel uniquely qualified to discourse on stubbornness. My Grandmother (alav hashalom) used to say of me, "Stubborn? Like a mule!" But if you turn it around and look at it as a good trait, you can call it tenaciousness. "A winner never quits and a quitter never wins!" True, I may be obsessive, BUT I GET A LOT DONE! And, (usually) (and quite modestly) I do it well. In my marriage I have learned to compromise, but my husband probably would say I'm still very stubborn. Still, I've improved! The steps do work if you work them! M---: I stay up late because I'd rather work than relax. You see, if I'm working I don't have to FEEL anything!

I--: Mazel Tov on the Web site. I don't know what a web site is, but I'm sure it's a good thing and I'm very proud of you!

Who is this alcoholic my wife has been talking about that is so stubborn? :-)

I remember walking into a meeting just before it started. The leader was telling his buddies about how he was sober through defiance. I quipped, "Did somebody say sober by defiance? That's me! I remember one guy telling me that I was too young to be an alcoholic."

He said, "Why ... I spilled more on my tie than you drank in your entire life!"

I replied, "Well ... at least I got it in my mouth!"

It is true. I have a single-mindedness that is difficult for my loved-ones to adjust to. But if my wife could have seen how open minded and wide open for anything I was when I was drinking ... I was a grab-the-handle-bars, hope-you-had-a-light-breakfast, step-off-into-the-void, how-fast-does-thing-go-in-third, God-looks-after-drunks-doesn't-he, wake-up-in-your-own-vomit, living-in-my-truck, was-that-a-red-light-I-saw, no-officer-I-would-never-have-an-open-container-in-my-car, pistol-packing, I-don't-have-relationships-I-take-hostages, roller coaster ride into oblivion. Just add alcohol and you're there.

She's never seen me like that, but I think she's seen hints of it while I've been sober.

Al---

B'shalom,

S---

Our discussion assumed that the alcoholic/addict was the defiant one. A year ago, I was caught in a vicious relapse cycle with a friend. He was the addict, I was the co-dependent, and it's a toss-up as to which of us was crazier. I was going to hang onto him even if it killed me--or him--and it nearly did.

Finally there came a point when I just couldn't carry it any more. I was also trying to hang onto my dying mother. She had just asked me to stay with her two nights a week instead of one--and she lived two hours away, and I have a young child, and I work. It was all too much. Actually, it had been too much for a long time, but I'm tough, right?

I went to a meeting, and afterwards I sat outside on a bench with an Al-Anon friend and told her what was going on. She asked if I wanted to do a 3rd step with her. I said, what do you mean, and she said, do the 3rd step, turn it over to G-d, and I'll sit here with you while you do it.

It was a gorgeous spring day. I looked up. In front of us was a beautiful stone church, where the meeting had been. I followed the line of the red tile roof, up to the cross at its peak. "Oh, no," I thought. "I'm doing this with a cross?" I looked past the cross, into the bright sky. "HaShem," I said in my mind. "I can't do it anymore. I'm turning it over to you. Please take care of my mother and my friend." Not content with this, I continued, "Here's what she needs .... here's what he likes ....." Like an anxious mother dropping her child off at daycare for the first time, I had a whole list for HaShem on how to take care of them! When I realized what I was doing, I was totally dismayed---I was such a hopeless failure, I couldn't even turn it over right. Then I saw another image. HaShem turned towards me. I felt wonderful, as though He were smiling. And he took the list.

Within a week, my mother had found someone to stay with her at night. And my friend got clean and moved to another state, where he found a good job and reconnected with his family.

This sounds like one of those stories I've read and said, "Yeah, right." But what I've described actually happened. Don't get me wrong. My problems were not solved. I stayed pretty crazy for some time. I'm still working on it, progress not perfection. But at least now I know that the well-being of people I love does not depend on me--or my wild defiance of reality.

B'shalom,

S--.